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	<title>Comments on: ISO open-eyed hope</title>
	<link>http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2007/01/03/iso-open-eyed-hope/</link>
	<description>uncovering life's layers, exploring truth's terrain...</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 16:12:05 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: Sage</title>
		<link>http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2007/01/03/iso-open-eyed-hope/#comment-2173</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jan 2007 01:19:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2007/01/03/iso-open-eyed-hope/#comment-2173</guid>
					<description>Hi Kristin,

Forgive my delay! I got lost in my own writing journey for a few weeks there. I also often contemplate the cruelties of my cats and dogs -- these deaths that seem to be primarily about entertainment. As I see it today, they suffer a kindred kind of domestication poisoning that we do. They have instincts that have been confused by another way of living that has been imposed on them by humans. I think these particular animals are quite similar to us in their lack of synchronicity with the natural world. Wild animals have historically been much more in balance with the natural world. However, as we destroy every inch of their natural world, we are completely disrupting that balance, as well. And we have bears and coyotes doing all kinds of craziness because we've taken their land and their food supply. Whew. I will stop there.

I'll get back to you on the "abandon all hope" concept. I feel I need to revisit the Pema Chodron book, and I have evidently loaned it to someone!

Hope the writing is just ecstatic over there! xo, Sage</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Kristin,</p>
<p>Forgive my delay! I got lost in my own writing journey for a few weeks there. I also often contemplate the cruelties of my cats and dogs &#8212; these deaths that seem to be primarily about entertainment. As I see it today, they suffer a kindred kind of domestication poisoning that we do. They have instincts that have been confused by another way of living that has been imposed on them by humans. I think these particular animals are quite similar to us in their lack of synchronicity with the natural world. Wild animals have historically been much more in balance with the natural world. However, as we destroy every inch of their natural world, we are completely disrupting that balance, as well. And we have bears and coyotes doing all kinds of craziness because we&#8217;ve taken their land and their food supply. Whew. I will stop there.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll get back to you on the &#8220;abandon all hope&#8221; concept. I feel I need to revisit the Pema Chodron book, and I have evidently loaned it to someone!</p>
<p>Hope the writing is just ecstatic over there! xo, Sage
</p>
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		<title>by: Kristin</title>
		<link>http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2007/01/03/iso-open-eyed-hope/#comment-2163</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jan 2007 06:12:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2007/01/03/iso-open-eyed-hope/#comment-2163</guid>
					<description>Sage, well put.  Maybe we're more like viruses than animals.  Makes me remember that scene from the Matrix where Agent Smith is talking with Morpheus about why he hates people so much.

All of this has me very curious, though...are we and animals as different as you describe?  Could the death threats we use be compared with a leader of a pack of animals baring its teeth and rearing up to say, "my way or a fight to the death"?  Could my childhood cat who killed and played with mice, or N's childhood dog who killed cats, a goat, and rabbits--not to eat, apparently--be compared with any of the ways we take advantage of the vulnerable around us, even sometimes for pleasure?  I really take your point about how our behavior seems so much more calculated and complicated and sinister than any of the other animals I've learned about, but I wonder whether we and they are as extremely different as we sometimes think.  What do you think?

"Abandon all hope" does resonate with a kind of wisdom, a kind of release that can open one up to gladness when things go well, rather than surprise and scandal when things go poorly.  I have to think more on this one, though, because when I try to imagine actually abandoning hope, I feel filled with despair and lethargy, rather than peace or true rest.  Maybe what feels better to me is to abandon unrealistic hope, and rather nurture a hope that's a lot more gritty somehow.  One that recognizes how helpless we actually are, and how impossible it is to fix even a handful of the struggles in or around us.  I explored this a little bit more &lt;a href="http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2006/08/23/on-forms-and-beasts-and-real-life-tales/" rel="nofollow"&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;, I think.

But maybe I'm not understanding the angle you're getting at with it.  With hope abandoned, as you or Chodron thinks of it, what would life look like?  Would there be joy?  Would there be motivation to pursue healing or wholeness?...to love?  I'd really love to understand this more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sage, well put.  Maybe we&#8217;re more like viruses than animals.  Makes me remember that scene from the Matrix where Agent Smith is talking with Morpheus about why he hates people so much.</p>
<p>All of this has me very curious, though&#8230;are we and animals as different as you describe?  Could the death threats we use be compared with a leader of a pack of animals baring its teeth and rearing up to say, &#8220;my way or a fight to the death&#8221;?  Could my childhood cat who killed and played with mice, or N&#8217;s childhood dog who killed cats, a goat, and rabbits&#8211;not to eat, apparently&#8211;be compared with any of the ways we take advantage of the vulnerable around us, even sometimes for pleasure?  I really take your point about how our behavior seems so much more calculated and complicated and sinister than any of the other animals I&#8217;ve learned about, but I wonder whether we and they are as extremely different as we sometimes think.  What do you think?</p>
<p>&#8220;Abandon all hope&#8221; does resonate with a kind of wisdom, a kind of release that can open one up to gladness when things go well, rather than surprise and scandal when things go poorly.  I have to think more on this one, though, because when I try to imagine actually abandoning hope, I feel filled with despair and lethargy, rather than peace or true rest.  Maybe what feels better to me is to abandon unrealistic hope, and rather nurture a hope that&#8217;s a lot more gritty somehow.  One that recognizes how helpless we actually are, and how impossible it is to fix even a handful of the struggles in or around us.  I explored this a little bit more <a href="http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2006/08/23/on-forms-and-beasts-and-real-life-tales/" rel="nofollow">here</a>, I think.</p>
<p>But maybe I&#8217;m not understanding the angle you&#8217;re getting at with it.  With hope abandoned, as you or Chodron thinks of it, what would life look like?  Would there be joy?  Would there be motivation to pursue healing or wholeness?&#8230;to love?  I&#8217;d really love to understand this more.
</p>
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		<title>by: Sage</title>
		<link>http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2007/01/03/iso-open-eyed-hope/#comment-2161</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jan 2007 05:35:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2007/01/03/iso-open-eyed-hope/#comment-2161</guid>
					<description>If only humans behaved like animals. Animals kill only what they need to eat to survive. There is no hate. There is no waste. They do not make death threats as a means of forcing their world view or politics on anyone else. They do not kill for fun, for vengeance, for spite. Their instincts are calibrated for a balanced pariticpation within the limits of the natural world. 

This post made me think of the first gust of shock I felt when I read that Pema Chodron put a note on her refrigerator that read: "Abandon all hope." I think this challenged something at my core: my sense of responsibility (and therefore investment in things turning out a certain way) for pretty much everything around me. I wanted everyone to be happy and safe and free, and I couldn't fix any of the mess anywhere. And it was just terrible. 

Well, I still want everyone to be happy and safe and free. But I return again and again to that phrase "abandon all hope." It is like a deep breath that settles me in my helplessness. In a way, I think the "standard" that breaks our hearts is hope, rather than morality. We want to see the world a certain way, and we want to see humans do what we think is right in that world. And this is where we get tangled in knots: in the dissonance between what is and how we believe things should be. 

The older I get, the more suspicious I am about what I think I know. And the more I respect my own suffering. Which makes it a little easier to respect the suffering of others. And I wonder what the world would be like if we humans sniffed each other's butts, declared "friend" or "enemy" right off the bat, and then honored those instincts without the complications of how and who we're taught to be in this complex culture of humanity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If only humans behaved like animals. Animals kill only what they need to eat to survive. There is no hate. There is no waste. They do not make death threats as a means of forcing their world view or politics on anyone else. They do not kill for fun, for vengeance, for spite. Their instincts are calibrated for a balanced pariticpation within the limits of the natural world. </p>
<p>This post made me think of the first gust of shock I felt when I read that Pema Chodron put a note on her refrigerator that read: &#8220;Abandon all hope.&#8221; I think this challenged something at my core: my sense of responsibility (and therefore investment in things turning out a certain way) for pretty much everything around me. I wanted everyone to be happy and safe and free, and I couldn&#8217;t fix any of the mess anywhere. And it was just terrible. </p>
<p>Well, I still want everyone to be happy and safe and free. But I return again and again to that phrase &#8220;abandon all hope.&#8221; It is like a deep breath that settles me in my helplessness. In a way, I think the &#8220;standard&#8221; that breaks our hearts is hope, rather than morality. We want to see the world a certain way, and we want to see humans do what we think is right in that world. And this is where we get tangled in knots: in the dissonance between what is and how we believe things should be. </p>
<p>The older I get, the more suspicious I am about what I think I know. And the more I respect my own suffering. Which makes it a little easier to respect the suffering of others. And I wonder what the world would be like if we humans sniffed each other&#8217;s butts, declared &#8220;friend&#8221; or &#8220;enemy&#8221; right off the bat, and then honored those instincts without the complications of how and who we&#8217;re taught to be in this complex culture of humanity.
</p>
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		<title>by: Kristin</title>
		<link>http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2007/01/03/iso-open-eyed-hope/#comment-2155</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jan 2007 04:07:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2007/01/03/iso-open-eyed-hope/#comment-2155</guid>
					<description>Julianne, yes!  That's exactly it!  I find it tremendously refreshing to not be scandalized by our world, but instead go around being delighted that anything other than "animal" behavior exists at all.  I'm uncomfortable demeaning animals by this label, as though they're coming even remotely close to destroying one another or our planet like humans are, but I think that's beside the point I'm wanting to make, which is that they and we are the same sort of beings maybe, acting according to instinct.  To blame any of us for being what we are seems strange, in this light.  To celebrate the ways any of us steps out of ourselves, out of a kind of rote existence, is what seems most called for.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Julianne, yes!  That&#8217;s exactly it!  I find it tremendously refreshing to not be scandalized by our world, but instead go around being delighted that anything other than &#8220;animal&#8221; behavior exists at all.  I&#8217;m uncomfortable demeaning animals by this label, as though they&#8217;re coming even remotely close to destroying one another or our planet like humans are, but I think that&#8217;s beside the point I&#8217;m wanting to make, which is that they and we are the same sort of beings maybe, acting according to instinct.  To blame any of us for being what we are seems strange, in this light.  To celebrate the ways any of us steps out of ourselves, out of a kind of rote existence, is what seems most called for.
</p>
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		<title>by: julianne</title>
		<link>http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2007/01/03/iso-open-eyed-hope/#comment-2154</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jan 2007 23:46:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2007/01/03/iso-open-eyed-hope/#comment-2154</guid>
					<description>Dear Kristin,
This is a different spin on a view I have held for a long time - a hopeful spin. It takes the 'original sin' paradigm and turns it on its head (at least this is how it looks from my Christian upbringing perspective). Instead of originally (or fundamentally) sinful/bad or good, we don't even include the black and white starkness but see it as animal or instictual vs humane (which may not be such a helpful term because then we see the human as fundamentally humane, rather than somehow holy or divine) or godly/holy/lovely. This paradigm is indeed full of hope, if for no other reason (in my mind) because it frees us somewhat of hard and fast categories into a freedom of being in the many ways we are created and able to be. thanks for continuing the conversation on this. 

julianne</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Kristin,<br />
This is a different spin on a view I have held for a long time - a hopeful spin. It takes the &#8216;original sin&#8217; paradigm and turns it on its head (at least this is how it looks from my Christian upbringing perspective). Instead of originally (or fundamentally) sinful/bad or good, we don&#8217;t even include the black and white starkness but see it as animal or instictual vs humane (which may not be such a helpful term because then we see the human as fundamentally humane, rather than somehow holy or divine) or godly/holy/lovely. This paradigm is indeed full of hope, if for no other reason (in my mind) because it frees us somewhat of hard and fast categories into a freedom of being in the many ways we are created and able to be. thanks for continuing the conversation on this. </p>
<p>julianne
</p>
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