Comments on: Only birds of a feather? http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2006/09/30/only-birds-of-a-feather/ uncovering life's layers, exploring truth's terrain... Thu, 20 Nov 2008 14:54:12 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.4 by: Kristin http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2006/09/30/only-birds-of-a-feather/#comment-1450 Mon, 16 Oct 2006 20:17:08 +0000 http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2006/09/30/only-birds-of-a-feather/#comment-1450 Fran, I think you're really right. The problem isn't just religion. Hate and its lesser versions are such human things. It does seem true at the same time that certain differences are cause for more violence than others. If Harris is at all right, religious beliefs could lead to the end of our world. That makes me want to read on... Fran, I think you’re really right. The problem isn’t just religion. Hate and its lesser versions are such human things. It does seem true at the same time that certain differences are cause for more violence than others. If Harris is at all right, religious beliefs could lead to the end of our world. That makes me want to read on…

]]> by: Fran aka Redondowriter http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2006/09/30/only-birds-of-a-feather/#comment-1423 Thu, 12 Oct 2006 01:50:51 +0000 http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2006/09/30/only-birds-of-a-feather/#comment-1423 The problem is far greater than religion itself, I think. I haven't read this book, but will make it a point to do so. People approach life through their perceptions, which of course are biased by religion, culture, ethnicity, etc. It's not just religion that makes us different. Harris's theory is like a theory of a priest friend of mine in the 1960s--there will always be ethnic prejudice until--we have so inner-bred that we are all the same color, with the same features. That would take a very long time. The older I get, the more I am aware that wherever two or more are gathered there will be love, but there will also be hate. It's the nature of being human. The problem is far greater than religion itself, I think. I haven’t read this book, but will make it a point to do so. People approach life through their perceptions, which of course are biased by religion, culture, ethnicity, etc. It’s not just religion that makes us different. Harris’s theory is like a theory of a priest friend of mine in the 1960s–there will always be ethnic prejudice until–we have so inner-bred that we are all the same color, with the same features. That would take a very long time. The older I get, the more I am aware that wherever two or more are gathered there will be love, but there will also be hate. It’s the nature of being human.

]]> by: jenlemen http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2006/09/30/only-birds-of-a-feather/#comment-1422 Wed, 04 Oct 2006 12:38:23 +0000 http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2006/09/30/only-birds-of-a-feather/#comment-1422 i find sam harris very compelling, though i'm not sure all of his points are that convincing or completed quite yet. it seems to me that connection IS possible between all kinds of people, no matter what anyone believes, but that that connection is harder to come by when our conversation is centered around religion. i've been dear friends with serious christian fundamentalists but there's no doubt in my mind that our friendship would not stand the test if religion was our primary subject. i have to say that his points about the problem of tolerance really grab me--though i don't know how much good it would do ultimately to disown the more extreme factions of a particular faith. doesn't that just give the radical one more reason to keep fighting? i find sam harris very compelling, though i’m not sure all of his points are that convincing or completed quite yet. it seems to me that connection IS possible between all kinds of people, no matter what anyone believes, but that that connection is harder to come by when our conversation is centered around religion. i’ve been dear friends with serious christian fundamentalists but there’s no doubt in my mind that our friendship would not stand the test if religion was our primary subject.

i have to say that his points about the problem of tolerance really grab me–though i don’t know how much good it would do ultimately to disown the more extreme factions of a particular faith. doesn’t that just give the radical one more reason to keep fighting?

]]> by: Jen Zug http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2006/09/30/only-birds-of-a-feather/#comment-1421 Wed, 04 Oct 2006 03:08:03 +0000 http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2006/09/30/only-birds-of-a-feather/#comment-1421 >>> Do you think this is true? Is intimacy and respect, of the kind for which I imagine all of us ultimately long, possible between people when one or both are religiously devoted, but not to the same religion? >>> Do you think this is true? Is intimacy and respect, of the kind for which I imagine all of us ultimately long, possible between people when one or both are religiously devoted, but not to the same religion?

]]> by: nate http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2006/09/30/only-birds-of-a-feather/#comment-1420 Wed, 04 Oct 2006 00:32:14 +0000 http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2006/09/30/only-birds-of-a-feather/#comment-1420 I like your post and the comments (aside from the hit-and-run which is such a great example of the problem you're talking about--the inability and unwillingness to have a two-way dialogue). I too wouldn't necessarily talk like Harris. However, he has convinced me that it is okay, and actually critical for the survival of the world, to break through the social taboo against talking about other people's religions. I think it is fine, for example, for people to believe that there is a God who all-knowingly and all-powerfully created people, the world, heaven and hell, etc., and that that God will send people to burn in hell for eternity if they don't do x, y, and z. However, it is not okay to call that love. It is not love. Defining that set of actions as love can and does lead to various forms of violence. Likewise, I think it is fine to believe in a God who has values that differ from some of the societies in the world. It is fine to try to live out the values of the God one believes in, so long as it doesn't harm other people. However, it is not okay to harm and/or kill people in the name of one's God. In short, my point is that I don't feel the need, nor do I have the right, to tell people what they should believe. I accept the fact that we live in different tribes when it comes to both religious and non-religious worldviews. I can live with that. What I can no longer accept, however, is when people harm others physically and/or psychologically as a result of a personally-held faith system. I like your post and the comments (aside from the hit-and-run which is such a great example of the problem you’re talking about–the inability and unwillingness to have a two-way dialogue). I too wouldn’t necessarily talk like Harris. However, he has convinced me that it is okay, and actually critical for the survival of the world, to break through the social taboo against talking about other people’s religions.

I think it is fine, for example, for people to believe that there is a God who all-knowingly and all-powerfully created people, the world, heaven and hell, etc., and that that God will send people to burn in hell for eternity if they don’t do x, y, and z. However, it is not okay to call that love. It is not love. Defining that set of actions as love can and does lead to various forms of violence.

Likewise, I think it is fine to believe in a God who has values that differ from some of the societies in the world. It is fine to try to live out the values of the God one believes in, so long as it doesn’t harm other people. However, it is not okay to harm and/or kill people in the name of one’s God.

In short, my point is that I don’t feel the need, nor do I have the right, to tell people what they should believe. I accept the fact that we live in different tribes when it comes to both religious and non-religious worldviews. I can live with that. What I can no longer accept, however, is when people harm others physically and/or psychologically as a result of a personally-held faith system.

]]> by: Jennifer http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2006/09/30/only-birds-of-a-feather/#comment-1419 Tue, 03 Oct 2006 22:14:46 +0000 http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2006/09/30/only-birds-of-a-feather/#comment-1419 >Do you think this is true? Is intimacy and respect, of the kind for which I imagine all of us ultimately long, possible between people when one or both are religiously devoted, but not to the same religion? I hope so. It's hard to even imagine very many examples of this in real life, but I hope so. >Do you think this is true? Is intimacy and respect, of the kind for which I imagine all of us ultimately long, possible between people when one or both are religiously devoted, but not to the same religion?

I hope so. It’s hard to even imagine very many examples of this in real life, but I hope so.

]]> by: Understanding Islam http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2006/09/30/only-birds-of-a-feather/#comment-1418 Mon, 02 Oct 2006 18:07:02 +0000 http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2006/09/30/only-birds-of-a-feather/#comment-1418 Islam, is it really how the media portrays it? Is it really all about terrorism and extremism? Here is your chance to find out the truth. Please visit our blog--> http://thejourney2islam-team.blogspot.com/ and/or website http://faithfulhanifah.tripod.com//index.html Thank you, peace Islam, is it really how the media portrays it? Is it really all about terrorism and extremism? Here is your chance to find out the truth. Please visit our blog–> http://thejourney2islam-team.blogspot.com/ and/or website http://faithfulhanifah.tripod.com//index.html

Thank you, peace

]]> by: Kristin http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2006/09/30/only-birds-of-a-feather/#comment-1417 Mon, 02 Oct 2006 17:34:48 +0000 http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2006/09/30/only-birds-of-a-feather/#comment-1417 Lori, yes! I think you're right on. The problem is that taking such a distanced perspective doesn't seem possible unless you aren't really part of any tribe. Am I wrong on this? Being part of a tribe has a lot of advantages, and the pressures to stay in the fold are strong. Leaving a tribe, or switching tribes, or saying the whole tribal system is doing us harm: these can have very violent consequences. Which I think is what Harris is talking about, and also why he always has to have body guards when he presents in public, and why he isn't altogether open about where he lives/studies. I'm thinking there's probably a need for two whole forums of discussion--one by people who can and/or want to take the distanced perspective that you seem to have in your comments, and one by people within tribes, who recognize that they can't and/or don't want to leave, but who want to talk about what it means that our world is so full of religious violence. Conversation across this divide also seems so important, but seems like an inherent kind of stalemate, too, at least in the short run, since the "solutions" each side would brainstorm would probably not fly with the other. I don't know. I'm thinking out loud here. I'd love to hear what you think. Lori, yes! I think you’re right on. The problem is that taking such a distanced perspective doesn’t seem possible unless you aren’t really part of any tribe. Am I wrong on this? Being part of a tribe has a lot of advantages, and the pressures to stay in the fold are strong. Leaving a tribe, or switching tribes, or saying the whole tribal system is doing us harm: these can have very violent consequences. Which I think is what Harris is talking about, and also why he always has to have body guards when he presents in public, and why he isn’t altogether open about where he lives/studies. I’m thinking there’s probably a need for two whole forums of discussion–one by people who can and/or want to take the distanced perspective that you seem to have in your comments, and one by people within tribes, who recognize that they can’t and/or don’t want to leave, but who want to talk about what it means that our world is so full of religious violence. Conversation across this divide also seems so important, but seems like an inherent kind of stalemate, too, at least in the short run, since the “solutions” each side would brainstorm would probably not fly with the other. I don’t know. I’m thinking out loud here. I’d love to hear what you think.

]]> by: Kristin http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2006/09/30/only-birds-of-a-feather/#comment-1416 Mon, 02 Oct 2006 17:21:09 +0000 http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2006/09/30/only-birds-of-a-feather/#comment-1416 Atticus, I think you're probably right. I wonder, though, whether the differences between certain religions (or subsets within one) are so great, and so fervently held by some, that the openness you talk about is almost impossible, at least not in our heart of hearts. As much as I respect *people*, I find it impossible to be open to the possibility that some of their beliefs about God or the afterlife could be true. If I'm honest, I'm actually deeply offended by some of these beliefs. If I try to forget that they believe them, and focus on other things we have in common, I can live in the respect and appreciation I have for them as people. But as soon as I dwell in awareness of these beliefs, I feel angry, or sad, or like a huge chasm exists between us. I don't know what to do about this. I'd love to hear what others think. Atticus, I think you’re probably right. I wonder, though, whether the differences between certain religions (or subsets within one) are so great, and so fervently held by some, that the openness you talk about is almost impossible, at least not in our heart of hearts. As much as I respect *people*, I find it impossible to be open to the possibility that some of their beliefs about God or the afterlife could be true. If I’m honest, I’m actually deeply offended by some of these beliefs. If I try to forget that they believe them, and focus on other things we have in common, I can live in the respect and appreciation I have for them as people. But as soon as I dwell in awareness of these beliefs, I feel angry, or sad, or like a huge chasm exists between us.

I don’t know what to do about this. I’d love to hear what others think.

]]> by: Lori http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2006/09/30/only-birds-of-a-feather/#comment-1415 Mon, 02 Oct 2006 17:14:48 +0000 http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2006/09/30/only-birds-of-a-feather/#comment-1415 I will be interested to hear more of what you think of Harris' book, Kristin! Very thought-provoking. I have been pondering similar things lately; one thought that has kept coming to me, is that all of the world's major religions are like old tribes. They each want to have the right to define/describe "reality:" they each think they are right, that the others don't have as complete a view of God/truth as they do, and they are all concerned to convince others of their rightness. From a sociological point of view, I wonder: is this just an out-dated form of social cohesion, useful for creating group identity, but increasingly not useful and even dangerous? All of our major religions originated during more tribal forms of culture, and I think they are creating tension because while they offer much truth about the human condition, they also come in a package that is VERY outdated. We can't afford to maintain tribal ways of relating; this will only escalate violence. What do you think? I will be interested to hear more of what you think of Harris’ book, Kristin! Very thought-provoking. I have been pondering similar things lately; one thought that has kept coming to me, is that all of the world’s major religions are like old tribes. They each want to have the right to define/describe “reality:” they each think they are right, that the others don’t have as complete a view of God/truth as they do, and they are all concerned to convince others of their rightness. From a sociological point of view, I wonder: is this just an out-dated form of social cohesion, useful for creating group identity, but increasingly not useful and even dangerous? All of our major religions originated during more tribal forms of culture, and I think they are creating tension because while they offer much truth about the human condition, they also come in a package that is VERY outdated. We can’t afford to maintain tribal ways of relating; this will only escalate violence. What do you think?

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