Comments on: There’s the good kind of sleep, and then there’s…that other kind http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2005/09/30/theres-the-good-kind-of-sleep-and-then-theresthat-other-kind/ uncovering life's layers, exploring truth's terrain... Fri, 21 Nov 2008 13:30:00 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.4 by: Kristin http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2005/09/30/theres-the-good-kind-of-sleep-and-then-theresthat-other-kind/#comment-1146 Sat, 08 Oct 2005 16:26:24 +0000 http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2005/09/30/theres-the-good-kind-of-sleep-and-then-theresthat-other-kind/#comment-1146 Thank you, Denise! And thanks for the reminder of Lamott's book! I read it some years back, but I'm sure it would have new relevance for me today. Thank you, Denise! And thanks for the reminder of Lamott’s book! I read it some years back, but I’m sure it would have new relevance for me today.

]]> by: Denise http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2005/09/30/theres-the-good-kind-of-sleep-and-then-theresthat-other-kind/#comment-1145 Fri, 07 Oct 2005 16:08:00 +0000 http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2005/09/30/theres-the-good-kind-of-sleep-and-then-theresthat-other-kind/#comment-1145 There is a bible proverb which says, "Where the stable is clean there is no life". In other words life, and all it's vitality and vibrancy is.... invariably dirty. btw, congratulations on your new baby and here's a book recommendation for first time parents: "Operating Instructions" by Anne Lamott a fellow mom, seeker, christian, bay area writer. There is a bible proverb which says, “Where the stable is clean there is no life”. In other words life, and all it’s vitality and vibrancy is…. invariably dirty.
btw, congratulations on your new baby and here’s a book recommendation for first time parents: “Operating Instructions” by Anne Lamott a fellow mom, seeker, christian, bay area writer.

]]> by: Kristin http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2005/09/30/theres-the-good-kind-of-sleep-and-then-theresthat-other-kind/#comment-1144 Tue, 04 Oct 2005 14:33:56 +0000 http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2005/09/30/theres-the-good-kind-of-sleep-and-then-theresthat-other-kind/#comment-1144 Thanks, Jen and Nate. I want to respond to everything here with a post. Hopefully today! Thanks, Jen and Nate. I want to respond to everything here with a post. Hopefully today!

]]> by: jen lemen http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2005/09/30/theres-the-good-kind-of-sleep-and-then-theresthat-other-kind/#comment-1143 Sun, 02 Oct 2005 22:19:57 +0000 http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2005/09/30/theres-the-good-kind-of-sleep-and-then-theresthat-other-kind/#comment-1143 i'll throw my two cents in... for me, process is a big part of things, and the line between oppressed and oppressor runs so fine when the end result looms too large in the foreground and everyone decides we just want to get something done. how we do things matters, too, right? the spirit of the thing is important. sometimes though i am paralyzed completely by these ideal values and i can't do anything at all, waiting for the pure moment. which violates the spirit of things as well, too. at this point, i have to tell myself that there's a difference between casting your lot with the imperfect, messy process run by flawed people and engaging in methods that lack ethics in order to achieve a certain end. sometimes the only way to get a glimpse of the difference in my own soul is to dive in and be willing to find out which side of the line i fall on from time to time. i've been flawed and self-serving more than pure most of the time, but those are always the deepest, best lessons. i wish i had the courage to dive in more often. the most dangerous posture i think, is thinking i can stay on the "right" side of an issue or that my participation somehow brings purity to the project. this inclination is part of my heritage, my tolerance teaching friends would say, as a White american. i'm still learning that being a learner is first and foremost my best posture and that the complexity of issues doesn't exempt me from bringing my passion and my longings for wholeness to the table. i don't know if it makes any sense but for what it's worth. i’ll throw my two cents in…
for me, process is a big part of things, and the line between oppressed and oppressor runs so fine when the end result looms too large in the foreground and everyone decides we just want to get something done. how we do things matters, too, right? the spirit of the thing is important. sometimes though i am paralyzed completely by these ideal values and i can’t do anything at all, waiting for the pure moment. which violates the spirit of things as well, too. at this point, i have to tell myself that there’s a difference between casting your lot with the imperfect, messy process run by flawed people and engaging in methods that lack ethics in order to achieve a certain end. sometimes the only way to get a glimpse of the difference in my own soul is to dive in and be willing to find out which side of the line i fall on from time to time. i’ve been flawed and self-serving more than pure most of the time, but those are always the deepest, best lessons. i wish i had the courage to dive in more often.

the most dangerous posture i think, is thinking i can stay on the “right” side of an issue or that my participation somehow brings purity to the project. this inclination is part of my heritage, my tolerance teaching friends would say, as a White american. i’m still learning that being a learner is first and foremost my best posture and that the complexity of issues doesn’t exempt me from bringing my passion and my longings for wholeness to the table.

i don’t know if it makes any sense but for what it’s worth.

]]> by: nate http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2005/09/30/theres-the-good-kind-of-sleep-and-then-theresthat-other-kind/#comment-1142 Sun, 02 Oct 2005 18:37:55 +0000 http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2005/09/30/theres-the-good-kind-of-sleep-and-then-theresthat-other-kind/#comment-1142 Saul Alinsky (considered by many to be the founder of modern-day community organizing) seemed to capture the tension surrounding compromise in this quote: “Compromise is a word that carries shades of weakness, vacillation, betrayal of ideals, surrender of moral principles. But to the organizer, compromise is a key and beautiful word. It is always present in the pragmatics of operation. It is making the deal, getting that vital breather, usually the victory.” Worthwhile change is messy and makes some people mad. Always. Another quote I like: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." Edmund Burke Saul Alinsky (considered by many to be the founder of modern-day community organizing) seemed to capture the tension surrounding compromise in this quote:

“Compromise is a word that carries shades of weakness, vacillation, betrayal of ideals, surrender of moral principles. But to the organizer, compromise is a key and beautiful word. It is always present in the pragmatics of operation. It is making the deal, getting that vital breather, usually the victory.”

Worthwhile change is messy and makes some people mad. Always.

Another quote I like:

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

]]> by: Kristin http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2005/09/30/theres-the-good-kind-of-sleep-and-then-theresthat-other-kind/#comment-1141 Sun, 02 Oct 2005 15:41:48 +0000 http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2005/09/30/theres-the-good-kind-of-sleep-and-then-theresthat-other-kind/#comment-1141 Yes, Fran - it's surprising me too, actually. Some switch turned on after birth that's making me alive to everything all at once...including the need for more sleep. :) So true, Roger! And Chandra! Yes! That's exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. Your comments make my mind go in a bunch of other directions, too...thinking about where the lines might be for any of us between being healthfully "unprincipled" for the sake of learning and growing and participating and being in relationship with others, and actually taking a stand on things that are important to us. Surely those things don't have to be mutually exclusive. But I think there are times when they probably are. Would I join a "good" cause that's sponsored by the KKK? By a group who hates gays? Or ___ (fill in the blank)? When is the time for a person to say "sorry, this 'good' you're doing just doesn't justify the 'bad'"? Thanks for getting me thinking... Yes, Fran - it’s surprising me too, actually. Some switch turned on after birth that’s making me alive to everything all at once…including the need for more sleep. :)

So true, Roger! And Chandra! Yes! That’s exactly the kind of thing I’m talking about. Your comments make my mind go in a bunch of other directions, too…thinking about where the lines might be for any of us between being healthfully “unprincipled” for the sake of learning and growing and participating and being in relationship with others, and actually taking a stand on things that are important to us. Surely those things don’t have to be mutually exclusive. But I think there are times when they probably are. Would I join a “good” cause that’s sponsored by the KKK? By a group who hates gays? Or ___ (fill in the blank)? When is the time for a person to say “sorry, this ‘good’ you’re doing just doesn’t justify the ‘bad’”?

Thanks for getting me thinking…

]]> by: Fran http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2005/09/30/theres-the-good-kind-of-sleep-and-then-theresthat-other-kind/#comment-1140 Sun, 02 Oct 2005 01:42:28 +0000 http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2005/09/30/theres-the-good-kind-of-sleep-and-then-theresthat-other-kind/#comment-1140 I'm pretty impressed you can be thinking about the "deep social justice stuff" when you are living moment to moment with a new baby. But, that's what will keep you involved during these months when the little one needs so much attention. My daughter in law, a clinical psychologist, had two babies 15 months apart, both very premature, and she has been a full-time mom now for the past 2 1/2 years. It has been so interesting to see her switch from one life to another. I’m pretty impressed you can be thinking about the “deep social justice stuff” when you are living moment to moment with a new baby. But, that’s what will keep you involved during these months when the little one needs so much attention. My daughter in law, a clinical psychologist, had two babies 15 months apart, both very premature, and she has been a full-time mom now for the past 2 1/2 years. It has been so interesting to see her switch from one life to another.

]]> by: Chandra http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2005/09/30/theres-the-good-kind-of-sleep-and-then-theresthat-other-kind/#comment-1139 Sat, 01 Oct 2005 16:46:52 +0000 http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2005/09/30/theres-the-good-kind-of-sleep-and-then-theresthat-other-kind/#comment-1139 This is my struggle. For a while now, I've been out of any formal "bible study," but this week attended one for the first time in a long time. It wasn't easy. I didn't like the structure of the study, or the fact that the verses referred to talked all about "sons" and "fathers" and not one mention of a woman. I sat with arms crossed, feeling that old Sunday school resistance in my throat. But then I decided to listen, and there was something to hear in the lesson and in what others were saying. And I decided to answer honestly, and while I could have said more, it was enough for that moment. And I was able to see that these are good people, that they love God, that they have insight into good things. For me, sometimes spicy means messy. And right now, I have to be willing to let my fingers get sticky. Peace. This is my struggle. For a while now, I’ve been out of any formal “bible study,” but this week attended one for the first time in a long time. It wasn’t easy. I didn’t like the structure of the study, or the fact that the verses referred to talked all about “sons” and “fathers” and not one mention of a woman. I sat with arms crossed, feeling that old Sunday school resistance in my throat.

But then I decided to listen, and there was something to hear in the lesson and in what others were saying. And I decided to answer honestly, and while I could have said more, it was enough for that moment. And I was able to see that these are good people, that they love God, that they have insight into good things.

For me, sometimes spicy means messy. And right now, I have to be willing to let my fingers get sticky.

Peace.

]]> by: roger http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2005/09/30/theres-the-good-kind-of-sleep-and-then-theresthat-other-kind/#comment-1138 Sat, 01 Oct 2005 12:37:21 +0000 http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2005/09/30/theres-the-good-kind-of-sleep-and-then-theresthat-other-kind/#comment-1138 There will always be weeds in the wheat field, and if you want a crop, you have to tolerate them while your crop is growing. There will always be weeds in the wheat field, and if you want a crop, you have to tolerate them while your crop is growing.

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