Comments on: The Path to Paradise http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2004/10/19/the-path-to-paradise/ uncovering life's layers, exploring truth's terrain... Tue, 06 Jan 2009 23:33:11 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.4 by: Kristin http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2004/10/19/the-path-to-paradise/#comment-966 Wed, 20 Oct 2004 20:36:28 +0000 http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2004/10/19/the-path-to-paradise/#comment-966 What a helpful way to think about this, Roger! Thank you. This seems like a way out of a kind of paralysis that can come with thinking one has to have life figured out before one can actually LIVE (in the deepest sense of that word). What a helpful way to think about this, Roger! Thank you. This seems like a way out of a kind of paralysis that can come with thinking one has to have life figured out before one can actually LIVE (in the deepest sense of that word).

]]> by: Roger http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2004/10/19/the-path-to-paradise/#comment-965 Wed, 20 Oct 2004 00:53:56 +0000 http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2004/10/19/the-path-to-paradise/#comment-965 Your question "If Understanding the All is just something I need to stop trying for, what then?", represents a transition point. Not that you ever need to stop trying, but rather that achieving that Understanding is not critical to living (and that's a good thing, too!). What you do in the face of your neighbor's suffering, or how you vote, or what lifestyle you choose to live - these choices and actions become data for beginning to define your coherence. This is the opposite of what you and I grew up being taught, ie that the Truth is what guides our actions, or at least should. So just from reading what you have been writing, one could conclude that you believe there is beauty in nature, you believe that there are just ways and unjust ways for people to deal with each other (the car repair incident), you believe in human equality, you believe there is beauty as well as utility in language - all of these things you believe without that Understanding All. I guess it is living with what you DO believe that is the "what then". Your question “If Understanding the All is just something I need to stop trying for, what then?”, represents a transition point. Not that you ever need to stop trying, but rather that achieving that Understanding is not critical to living (and that’s a good thing, too!). What you do in the face of your neighbor’s suffering, or how you vote, or what lifestyle you choose to live - these choices and actions become data for beginning to define your coherence. This is the opposite of what you and I grew up being taught, ie that the Truth is what guides our actions, or at least should. So just from reading what you have been writing, one could conclude that you believe there is beauty in nature, you believe that there are just ways and unjust ways for people to deal with each other (the car repair incident), you believe in human equality, you believe there is beauty as well as utility in language - all of these things you believe without that Understanding All. I guess it is living with what you DO believe that is the “what then”.

]]> by: Kristin http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2004/10/19/the-path-to-paradise/#comment-964 Tue, 19 Oct 2004 21:33:39 +0000 http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2004/10/19/the-path-to-paradise/#comment-964 ah - more good words, Siona. Part of me says, "bingo!" when you speak of no coherence; another part says, "but...but..." That latter part of me is drawn to chaos theory, and other notions that aren't either/or when it comes to the chaos/order question. This latter part also doesn't want the Holy to be ONLY frightening and mysterious and chaotic, as you say, but also gentle, tangible, deeply knowable - maybe not in some intellectual way, but at that deep "knowing" level that is as natural as breathing. Or like seeing your own reflection in the mirror. I think you're right about those professors "resting peacefully in sacred uncertainty"...though surely they had a metanarrative giving them some sort of coherence, don't you think? As much as the yearning, frustrated, empty-feeling parts of me want to disagree, I think you've also nailed it with the "being more comfortable than I let myself think" idea. I'm coming to see humans as each being a community of people inside; in my community there are Kristins who are very frustrated and uncomfortable and want my nice clean boxes back for understanding God and the world. But there are also Kristins who feel much older than them, and actually much more settled and peaceful about letting things be what they are: un-boxable for me right now. I think you've pointed these latter Kristins out here, and for this I'm grateful. I really need to be reminded of them sometimes. Chris - thank you, too. You have lots of that Quaker-professor aura about you, and I love it. Thanks for your words. ah - more good words, Siona. Part of me says, “bingo!” when you speak of no coherence; another part says, “but…but…” That latter part of me is drawn to chaos theory, and other notions that aren’t either/or when it comes to the chaos/order question. This latter part also doesn’t want the Holy to be ONLY frightening and mysterious and chaotic, as you say, but also gentle, tangible, deeply knowable - maybe not in some intellectual way, but at that deep “knowing” level that is as natural as breathing. Or like seeing your own reflection in the mirror.

I think you’re right about those professors “resting peacefully in sacred uncertainty”…though surely they had a metanarrative giving them some sort of coherence, don’t you think?

As much as the yearning, frustrated, empty-feeling parts of me want to disagree, I think you’ve also nailed it with the “being more comfortable than I let myself think” idea. I’m coming to see humans as each being a community of people inside; in my community there are Kristins who are very frustrated and uncomfortable and want my nice clean boxes back for understanding God and the world. But there are also Kristins who feel much older than them, and actually much more settled and peaceful about letting things be what they are: un-boxable for me right now. I think you’ve pointed these latter Kristins out here, and for this I’m grateful. I really need to be reminded of them sometimes.

Chris - thank you, too. You have lots of that Quaker-professor aura about you, and I love it. Thanks for your words.

]]> by: Siona http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2004/10/19/the-path-to-paradise/#comment-963 Tue, 19 Oct 2004 20:41:55 +0000 http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2004/10/19/the-path-to-paradise/#comment-963 Might I suggest that perhaps there isn't any structure or coherence or consistency to the world? That there is no <i>sense</i> to it all? The Holy is the unknowable. It <i>is</i> that terrifying mysteriousness that you're experiencing so viscerally. The Holy is frightening and chaotic and utterly beyond understanding. It's not that your Quaker professors had some coherent picture of the world that they relied on, but rather that they reseted peacefully in this sacred uncertainty. I feel a little hypocritical writing this, because, more often than not, I find myself in your tremulous position, crying out a plaintive, <i>why?</i> My grandfather, though, was a minister in the same vein as those Quakers of yours. His soul shone through him, and yet he was adament in his reverence of the vast unknown. I'm not sure how to answer your final questions. In my better moments, I can say I've found peace, but it came at cost, and not at a cost I'd be pressed to recommend. I do, though, think you're underestimating your own "fresh and intiguing" spirituality. I think you're more comfortable than you let yourself think. Thank you, though, for a beautiful essay. Might I suggest that perhaps there isn’t any structure or coherence or consistency to the world? That there is no sense to it all? The Holy is the unknowable. It is that terrifying mysteriousness that you’re experiencing so viscerally. The Holy is frightening and chaotic and utterly beyond understanding.

It’s not that your Quaker professors had some coherent picture of the world that they relied on, but rather that they reseted peacefully in this sacred uncertainty.

I feel a little hypocritical writing this, because, more often than not, I find myself in your tremulous position, crying out a plaintive, why? My grandfather, though, was a minister in the same vein as those Quakers of yours. His soul shone through him, and yet he was adament in his reverence of the vast unknown.

I’m not sure how to answer your final questions. In my better moments, I can say I’ve found peace, but it came at cost, and not at a cost I’d be pressed to recommend. I do, though, think you’re underestimating your own “fresh and intiguing” spirituality. I think you’re more comfortable than you let yourself think.

Thank you, though, for a beautiful essay.

]]> by: Chris Erdman http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2004/10/19/the-path-to-paradise/#comment-962 Tue, 19 Oct 2004 17:03:55 +0000 http://www.kristinnoelle.com/2004/10/19/the-path-to-paradise/#comment-962 Your "But I haven’t achieved what I’ve been working for"...reminds me of U2's "Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For". Your wistfulness is also a contemplative gift, an openness to invite the Holy in. She is with you, in the searching. As you and I have said in the past, maybe its the living of the questions that really counts. Cheers to you, dear friend. Your “But I haven’t achieved what I’ve been working for”…reminds me of U2’s “Still Haven’t Found What I’m Looking For”. Your wistfulness is also a contemplative gift, an openness to invite the Holy in. She is with you, in the searching. As you and I have said in the past, maybe its the living of the questions that really counts. Cheers to you, dear friend.

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